Hardcore

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For some reason lately, this is something that's been on my mind a lot. What is hardcore?

We can generally agree that it started off as all that Minor Threat/Bad Brains/DYS punk stuff that goes way back, but what it is now?

Bands like Charles Bronson, Converge, Uphill Battle, hell even Unearth are considered hardcore in different circles.

Has this genre been misinterpreted to hell? Or has it just evolved in so many different ways that it just needs some new "labels" so to speak?

I'm just kind of wondering what your opinions are.

[Shevy]

I predict Scoots will be all over this.

While my experience with hardcore is limited, it just seems like a genre that has spread itself so thin that I can't make heads or tails of it. Due to my inexperience, it seems like there is such a fine line between hardcore, metalcore, and grindcore. When you get into all the specialty sub-genre's like mincecore I just throw up my hands in submission.

[OneEye]

It has been mislabeled, to say the least. Horribly. To me, it means a bunch of pissed off jocks thinking they have a feeling for life before they grow up. But, I'm sitting with a pabst, ground pattie and a weed buzz after hitting the frisbee golf course. I''m a fucking hippie.So, who gives a fuck, call it what you want.

[sc00ts]

Has this genre been misinterpreted to hell? Or has it just evolved in so many different ways that it just needs some new "labels" so to speak?

pretty much. of course there are no hard and fast rules about where genre begins and ends, but here's my .02:

in general (in the beginning anyway) "punk" and "hardcore" were considered separate entities. a lot of stuff people kind of lazily call punk today is more accurately described as hardcore though this is a picayune distinction for 99.9% of the world. for a quick and dirty reference, think of punk as being a 70s phenomenon, hc as 80s. punk was more about rejecting convention; consider the first wave of NYC punk: ramones, blondie, television, suicide, etc--none of them even really sound like each other. experimentation and "artsiness" were important, if not necessarily conscious decisions. their influences were guys like velvet underground, capt beefheart, avant jazz like albert ayler, etc.

hardcore is the first wave of music to actually be influenced by punk. tho the very first hc records are often considered to be the middle class' "out of vogue" and bad brains' "pay to cum" (both in '78), in general we think of the golden age of hc to be more like 80-84. a lot of it was kids hearing the sex pistols or whoever and saying "i could start a band and play THIS good." it was a primarily young, suburban, and untrained scene. the music is fast, simple, loud and violent. the speed and lack of virtuosity are probably the closest thing to a hallmark of the hc sound (in fact once hc bands had been playing together for a few years and actually learned how to play their instruments, many of them wanted to play more technical/rock stuff and alienated their fans). it's hard to try to explain the "difference" between punk and hc to a civilian, but i know it when i hear it (usually).

punk: ramones, dead boys, buzzcocks, eater, x-ray spex, the fall, chron gen, rudimentary peni, richard hell, etc

hc: circle jerks, bad brains, jfa, suicical tendencies, minor threat, jerrys kids, agnostic front, discharge

started off punk, evolved into hc: black flag, misfits

hard to pin down: dead kennedys, germs

i dunno, hope this helps. i could talk about this pretty much all day (and do on another board) so if you want to know more, holla at me.

[sc00ts]

also, "NYHC" as a genre typically is referring to late 80s early 90s stuff like judge, cro-mags, madball, etc and is where a lot of hc's bad rep of "jockishness" comes from. it's also where a lot of modern mainstream hardcore (as they would call themselves) take their primary influence from, both in sound and attitude unfortunately.

hardcore and grind are not really related imo. no blastbeats in hc. i don't think there is a fine line at all between hc and metalcore either, i can spot that from a mile away. if it sounds overtly metallic it probably isn't hc (in the sense i use the term).

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Sc00ts said:

a lot of stuff people kind of lazily call punk today is more accurately described as hardcore though this is a picayune distinction for 99.9% of the world.

Perhaps punk as a genre has evolved itself too. I think it's just all about musical standards. Punk is what hardcore was 20 years ago, and what modern hardcore is wasn't even around 20 years ago. Bands are just trying to play faster and do more innovative things. You can't really keep doing the same thing forever, because it will get boring. It would eventually get to a point where people just stole songs from each other and just changed the words and called it their own. I've heard people say "real hardcore is dead" and I just don't think it's true. There's some of it still around, whether it's in its pure form or something a little different. All the stuff I tend to listen to that gets real technical with its odd time signatures and stilted riffs has its hardcore roots, but I think it's taken a turn towards metal and jazz. We affectionately call it tech metal. I think this fits.

People are also saying that crossover(punk/metal) has evolved as well and stuff like Backstabbers Inc. and Converge fits this "new" genre. Who knows? I don't. Maybe they're right.

I'm not claiming to be an expert either, I just want to share what I think.

[sc00ts]

are you saying backstabbers inc is a crossover band...?

i just think saying (for instance) that tech metal has its roots in hc is kind of pointless. it'd be like saying "tech metal is music" or "tech metal is a form of rock." great, but it doesn't tell me anything. when the only nod to hc is speed, then (to me at least) the term just stops being useful as a descriptor. just say "fast" or "uptempo" or something instead.

hc is still around, even in the somewhat rigid tradition i've described. the repos, i object, look back and laugh, fucked up, knife fight, caustic christ, etc.

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Sc00ts said:

are you saying backstabbers inc is a crossover band...?

As seen on the Trash Art website

No longer New Hampshire's best kept secret, BSI are defiantly independent of the ladder climbing social-circus that hardcore has become. Crossover for the modern generation, the Stabbers tear trough everything in their path with a bitter gumbo of socially conscious hardcore, metal and grind. They tune low, play fast, and break all of the rules. Backstabbers Inc will leave you with a black eye and a lowered sense of self esteem.

Don't ask me, I didn't write it.

[sc00ts]

i dunno, all i've heard is kamikaze missions but this sure ain't crossover to me... metal/grind with (i guess) a hardcore edge to the vocals. i love when people make up terms... "crossover for the modern generation" well no one knows what that means, guess they can't say it isn't true, haha.

[Shevy]

BSI is definitely grindcore in my eyes.

So something interesting you mentioned is the fact that there are no blast beats in hardcore. Is this a standard way of thinking? I mean, blastbeats are certainly overused in certain genre's of music, but all it's doing is providing backbone to the music.

Basically all I'm saying is that if one were to take a Gorilla Biscuits song, add some blast beats to it, it would still sound like hardcore to me. Is not using blastbeats in hardcore equal to using growls in death metal? Is it that much part of the genre?

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Shevy said:

BSI is definitely grindcore in my eyes.

I don't know if I agree with that. Not enough blast beats for that.

I do agree with whatever you just said after that, even if I've never heard Gorilla Biscuits. I think blast beats are good for increasing the intensity sometimes. When you overuse them, playing at any other speed seems boring. Hell, even playing at that fast speed seems boring.

[sc00ts]

i think of blastbeats as belonging pretty much exclusively to grind/death metal. i'm sure you could find a legit hc song or ten that has them though, depending on what your definition of a "blastbeat" is... keep in mind, at least in "the old days" most hc drummers wouldn't even be good enough to fucking PLAY a blastbeat (this is no longer true today necessarily).

if i heard GB with blastbeats i'd be more inclined to describe it as grind with hc vocals (for instance) than hc with blastbeats, if that makes any sense to you.

[Shevy]

Lamp said:

I don't know if I agree with that. Not enough blast beats for that.

I've always looked at grindcore as hardcore with death metal or technically advanced influences. They certainly have a strong hardcore feel, but they also offer hairpin tempo changes and really interesting technical ability. I could see them being judged either way, but they sound more grind than hardcore to me.

Same with Uphill Battle.

And you need to hunt down some Gorilla Biscuits!

[sc00ts]

shit like tempo changes and interesting technical ability is usually absent from hc

[Shevy]

Sc00ts said:

i think of blastbeats as belonging pretty much exclusively to grind/death metal.

The blastbeat used to be exclusive to jazz (mostly fusion, avante garde, and freejazz...although it wasn't refered to as a "blastbeat" back then). It wasn't until the early 80's that metal bands started using it.

[1:(]

Maybe my vision of the whole thing is warped since I'm ten years younger than the people I'm talking about this with and therfore in a different musical generation, but I wouldn't say that just because something's...

Wait, actually. Look at a lot of the stuff from the 90s. Shit like Capitalist Casualties and Spazz...powerviolence? Is it new hardcore?

I don't know. I like it.

I'm rambling.

[Shevy]

Lamp, if I had an award I'd give it to you for starting this thread.

Anyway, can somebody explain powerviolence to me? How does it differ?

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Powerviolence to me is basically if you took that 80s hardcore and gave it blast beats and other various tempo changes. It's like tech metal's punk cousin in a way(punk guitars, but more technical drumming. You won't find much besides power chords here.), the pre-requisite.

For examples, take the two bands I just mentioned, maybe other stuff like Charles Bronson and Fuck On The Beach. It's all high quality.

And I'd take that award with pride. I like that we're actually having a good discussion here.

[sc00ts]

powerviolence? Is it new hardcore?

kinda. powerviolence is just a name someone made up (basically for the tougher/faster 90s hardcore). just a term to further divide the genre.

[Shevy]

That would explain why powerviolence is so closely associated with grind. I'm going to take a look around and see if I can find some definitive explaination concerning the differences between the two.